Karen Lander inquest transcript
Karen Lander: Hello
Const. Todd Scaplen: Hi, Karen. How are you doing?
Lander: Hey. Good. You?
Scaplen: Good. Karen, it's Todd with the RCMP.
Scaplen: Is everything OK today?
Scaplen: Ya? What's going on? I'm a little but concerned about you today.
Lander: No, it's all good.
Scaplen: It's all good? What's been going on?
Lander: Not too much.
Scaplen: No? I'm a little bit concerned about you because I want to make sure you're OK. I heard you were upset today? Is that true?
Lander: No it's all good.
Scaplen: Have you been drinking today or anything Karen?
Lander: Mmm, just a little.
Scaplen: A little bit eh? Ya, because I'm really concerned that you're thinking about hurting yourself today. Are you thinking about hurting yourself?
Lander: Absolutely not.
Scaplen: No, eh?
Scaplen: Because I'd like to talk to you and all that sort of stuff and I want to make sure that you're OK because your friends were concerned about you and that, eh?
Lander: No, it's all good. I was kind of depressed earlier but I'm all good. I'm just, I hate life but life happens, right?
Scaplen: No I can hear that from you. Karen would you be willing to come out so we can make sure you're OK today and all that? You know because I'm just a bit concerned and I want to make sure that you're OK.
Lander: It's OK, It's alright. Nobody needs to be concerned about (anything). I got the dog here she's my best friend.
Scaplen: What went good today?
Lander: Well I'm going to see my kids tomorrow.
(Lander continues to tell Scaplen about her children. We have edited this out for confidentiality reasons)
Scaplen: So what are you going to do now? What's your plan for the rest of your day?
Lander: I'm just going to relax, chillax. Take it easy. I'm not going to do anything drastic so it's all good. Nothing to worry about there, baby.
Scaplen: I know. I know you're saying that but I'm still a bit concerned. I'm concerned for your safety, you know?
Lander: I'll see you later.
Scaplen: Well hold on, Karen. Before you go what I'd like to do, Karen, is ... I want to make sure you're able to see your babies and take care of them and get everything together. So I wondered if you'd be able to come out of the house and we would be able to give you some help today to make sure you're OK and I can know and your friends can know that you're safe for today.
Scaplen: You're not in trouble or anything like that, we just want to make sure that you're safe for today because of what we heard.
Lander: No. It's all good. Just forget about everything that everybody said because it's so all of the hurt (she says something inaudible)
Scaplen: Yup. Yup. And I know that you're saying that but it really concerned me and I don't want you to think nobody cares because everybody cares about you.
Lander: It's all good, nobody. It's all good. Take care.
Scaplen: No, but, Karen, I want to make sure you're able to come out with us and that you're able to see your babies and take care of them.
Lander: No, it's all good.
Scaplen: You know if you come out and we see, make sure that you're OK, we get to talk to you and you're able to talk to somebody then everything is good and then tomorrow is another day and you see your babies.
Lander: I'm going to hang up right now because I have to go now.
Scaplen: Karen, I don't want you to hang up on me. I want to be able to talk to you in person and I want to be able to make sure you're OK, right? That's what I want to be able to do and then everything can be fine and we can all go back to normal and then you can have your day and all that but I need you to come out so that we can talk to you in person just so we can make sure everything is good and that everything is safe and that you can maybe talk to somebody if you need to because I know that you were feeling really bad today.
Lander: I know. It's not like that anymore. I'm just drinking to get drunk blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to do anything drastic or (anything) you know.
Scaplen: I hear ya, so can you tell me what (your children) like to do? Like what kind of sports?
Lander: Never mind.
Karen hangs up the phone.
(Lander picks up again. Lander and Scaplen have a conversation about Lander a leaving the premises. Scaplen tells Lander the owner wants her out. Lander says she will leave. Scaplen instructs her to exit the front door of the house with no weapons and nothing in her hands. Lander hangs up and stays inside.)
Scaplen: Hi Karen
Scaplen: I thought you guys were coming out you were supposed to leave the house. What's going on?
Lander: I'm looking at all the rifles.
Scaplen: What are you looking at the rifles for?
Lander: Seeing if there is any ammunition so I can blow my head off.
Scaplen: Why do you want to do that? I thought you wanted to see your babies tomorrow?
Lander: Nope. Nooooo. Not even.
Scaplen: You said to me earlier you wanted to see your babies tomorrow and you had plans with (them).
Lander: Oh, what the ... ?
Scaplen: What's happening? I'm really concerned about you now you know?
K: (Get lost) OK!
Scaplen: No I can't.
Karen hangs up.
(Scaplen calls again)
Scaplen: Hi Karen it's Todd. What's going on? How are you doing? Karen like I said I'm concerned about you Karen. You started to talk about rifles and all that, which really scared me.
Lander: Yup. I've got one right here, right here.
Scaplen: What's that?
Lander: I said I got one right here.
Scaplen: You got a gun right there?
Scaplen: What kind of gun?
Lander: I don't know. A rifle. I found a rifle (She says something inaudible)
Scaplen: Ya, what are you going to do?
Lander: I'm going to shoot my head off.
Scaplen: I don't want you to do that Karen.
Lander: Who cares?
Scaplen: I care.
Lander: You don't care. (crying)
Scaplen: You know, what about your babies? They care. They love their mom. You're going to see them tomorrow.
Lander: I'm not going to see them tomorrow because I'll be dead.
Scaplen: No. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants that Karen.
Lander: I would like that.
Scaplen: No. Have you thought about this before?
Lander: (Inaudible, crying)
Scaplen: What upset you so bad today?
Lander: I'm losing my place and I'm never going to get my kids back.
Scaplen: That's got to be really tough for you. I can see why you're really upset.
Lander: Just like that. I really hate it. (She mumbles something about finding a rifle)
Scaplen: Well I don't want it to work. I don't want anything to happen to you Karen.
Lander: It just went click.
Scaplen: No, we don't want anything to happen to you.
Lander: It didn't blow in my head. It didn't blow in my head like I wanted.
Scaplen: No we don't' want that happen. I'm sure your boys don't want that to happen.
Lander: My boys are better off without me anyways. I'm just an alcoholic and I can't stop drinking. I keep trying to quit but I can't.
Scaplen: It's got to be really tough.
Lander: I can't quit.
Lander: I have a rifle and I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it. I'm going to kill you guys. I'll shoot you. You can shoot me all you want because I want to die man.
Scaplen: No we don't want to do that and we don't want you to die we just want to see, you know sometimes some people need some extra help to get through problems and there is nothing wrong with that.
Lander: I'm going to come out with an unarmed rifle and I'm going to point at you guys and you guys are going to shoot at me.
Scaplen: Karen don't say that.
Lander: Just shoot me until I'm dead, OK?
Scaplen: No we don't want that to happen because KarenŠ
Lander: Because I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. I'm going to come out with a god damn rifle Š
Scaplen: But you would be hurting a lot of people if you did that.
Lander: It's going to beŠ
Scaplen: Karen you would hurt a lot of people if you did that.
Lander: It's going to be no (Says something inaudible)
Scaplen: We don't want anybody to get hurt Karen. I don't want anybody to have anything to be able to say or do or have anything against ya.
Lander: You guys can shoot me because I'm going to come out with a goddamn rifle and I'm going to fire at you.
Scaplen: I don't want you to do that Karen. I'm your friend. What if I'm there?
Lander: You know what? You know what?
Scaplen: What if I'm there and I've been talking to you Karen. I don't want to get shot.
Lander: I'm going to shoot anybody and everybody. (She says something about the police having to shoot her dead)
Scaplen: I don't want any of my friends to get hurt. I don't want anybody who happens to be walking down the road...
Lander: I don't care. I've got a rifle and I'm going to shoot you guys.
Scaplen: Karen you're not somebody who would kill somebody else. You're a good person.
Lander: No, I would never kill anybody but myself.
Lander: I'd lift the firearm against an army of police officers, just an empty case just so you guys can fire at me, dead.
Scaplen: We don't want (your children) to think about something like that.
Lander: You guys would do that. It's OK. I get it. You think that you could, you think you can do that.
Scaplen: No Karen we just want you to come out and be able to talk to somebody.
Lander: I'll point it at you guys and make you guys make the first shot so I could ... drop dead, OK?
Scaplen: No Karen.
Lander: That would be awesome, wouldn't it?
Scaplen: No, I don't think it would be Karen.
Lander: It would be first page news.
Scaplen: You wouldn't want your kids to remember you like that.
Lander: Who cares what I want? Who gives a ... about what I want?
Scaplen: But it's your kids. Don't you care about what your kids would want?
Lander: Go ahead bring it on. Bring it on. I got a gun I could come out with an unloaded gun and come out with you guys shooting at me. Go ahead, bring it on.
Scaplen: No, we don't do that
Lander: Come on do it. I dare you! I double dare you.
Scaplen: No, we're not doing that Karen.
Lander: You do that!
(Lander starts to talk about her children again)
Lander: I don't ... care anymore because I'm going to kill myself. Nobody is going to (care) anymore.
Scaplen: No, there are lots of people that would care Karen.
Lander: Nobody would (care). You think I would put it on Facebook and people would care. Nobody cares...
Scaplen: Well I do. I'm talking to you today.
Lander: There are only maybe two people that care.
Scaplen: Who else is there?
Lander: My sister, my sister...
Scaplen: And who else cares?
Lander: (My friend). She's a really good person.
Scaplen: Where does she live?
Lander: Here in Yellowknife.
Scaplen: Do you think they would be upset if something happened to you? Do you think their heart would break?
Lander: I'm pretty sure.
Scaplen: Ya, we wouldn't want that, right? Because you love them, right?
Lander: I think I'd just be saving them grief because I'm just nothing but a, nothing but aŠ (sobbing)
Scaplen: Karen I'm sure they love you very much and I'm sure your kids love you very much and they wouldn't want anything to happen to you.
Lander: You know how many rifles I went through to find, to go through that bullet. I went through a lot of rifles to go through that bullet. I found it and I'm going to put it through my head, OK?
Scaplen: Where did you get the rifle Karen? I thought you didn't have anything there.
Lander: Wait there is a shell in there. I'm going to shoot my head off, OK?...
Scaplen: Karen don't do that.
Lander: I got this rifle. I got it.
Scaplen: Ya, put the rifle away. Just while we're talking don't do anything to hurt yourself while we're talking.
Lander: Why didn't the rifle work?
Scaplen: Whether it's from god or wherever, who it's from, it's a sign that nobody wants you to get hurt. Your friends and your family.
Lander: I had the rifle ready to blow my head off and I put the shell in there and... I can't even (sobbing). I can't (sobbing).
Scaplen: Well Karen I'm glad it didn't work. I'm glad that we can talk some more. I'm glad we can try and work things out and you can come out, we can try and look at a plan to help you through this and with your children, talk to your children more and see your children more.
Lander: What the? (Sound is muffled. She says something about going home and hanging herself)
Karen hangs up.